Indeed, the film iscentrally concerned with the failure of a 'male-centric' andpatriarchal ideology to deal with female desire; and the narrativethrust of the film revolves around Bill's increasingly hopelessefforts to flee from (but also to copy and avenge) Alice's desire, adesire from which he is completely excluded, just as he is laterexcluded from the desire-space of the power-elite at Somerton. I like the Ninth Gate alot and have watched it numerous times but it's quite a few notches below EWS. It would be odd for him to say, "orgy," or ritual, > etc. Mandy was not the same woman. He treated her as a not-very-importantpatient; no Mandys attend Bill's upmarket surgery. Statanic mass?>, > <<<<<<<<< it is clearly the same voice as the "mysterious woman." EWS was potential. Lets look at the basic plot of this film. <<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>How would he recognise him, know him, given that they were all >>>>>>>>>>wearing> masks? because Bill didn't get to see him up close like the film audience. <<<<<<<<, > In the spur of the moment people might first recognize voices, > subliminally. The point, however, is that even if all three female> 'characters' are the same woman (and so, effectively, the same> character), this serves to set up even more contradictions, not to> mention buying in to Ziegler's warped, patriarchal world."<<<<<<<<<<>. Why would he demand that she take off> her mask if this were so? ". While Polanski is the master ofparanoia, The Ninth Gate had too many things wrong with it. reinforced bythe simple observation that you have never actually posted here before[at least under your supplied handle/ID]. If it is vague, then how can it also be 'clear'? These ceremonies must have been a big customenr for his former patient. The big question is how did the mask get there, and who left it? But it is obvious from Kubrick's portrayal of Somerton that thewomen are there purely as sex-workers, are there toservice the inner sanctum of male patriarchy in the ritualized desire-space of the power elite at Somerton. 1. What is interesting is that the film's very ambiguity concerning theidentities of the three women (Mandy, masked woman, woman in morgue),sets up a desire to 'fill in' all the film's narrative gaps anddeadlocks, a desire to shut down such uncertainty, to give - just likeZiegler - an easy, 'commonsensical' black and white 'explanation' ofevents. <<<<<<<<<<. Wasn't the woman in the mask a lot skinnier than the ODd woman?? In a case like that a pwerson would go through the various possibilities in his mind, but he was kinda busy. When we see the naked corpse's face from the overhead shot, at first it's hard to tell if it's really Mandy's face, because of the expression and the angle, her combed back hair etc. ), Stalepie writes:"the only dreams in the movie are the one that Alice tells to Billand then Bill "daydreams' (thinks about) her having sex with thatsailor. Her pubic hair is trimmed just like Mandy's Pubic hair. You can identify Pollacks eyes and chin quite easily in the close ups. Imay bewrong, but I think Kubrick intended it that way. Crumb Eye. At what point do we decide whether Corpse Mandy's very. I never said Bill recognized him.we get to recognize him when > we study it. We could say that even Nick was in on it and the phone call to Nick in the Jazz club was a set up to pique Bill's interest, even letting Bill knows the password. >>>>>>>>>If this were really the> case, wouldn't Bill have recognised that voice when speaking to the> masked woman at Somerton, instead of asking her "Who are you?" I think it is clear he was referring to the Somerton party. Is that how > you> would describe it? --Napoleon. The "over the rainbow" remark earlier at Zeigler's party was already a suggestion for Bill to think of his patient who owned "Rainbow Fashions." Now that's out of the way, a brief introduction. But that's not the half of it. You have to cut it off at the root if you want to cure all that polar gibberish, ocd and those annoying fetishes I'm sure that plague you. >He also must have recognized> the voice, considering that her voice is somewhat deep and throaty with a> tinge of distinctive accent. The poolroom scene is an amazing piece of extreme understatement, while at the same time, being simplke and concrete. I think it is clear he was referring to the Somerton party. > > On Jan 11, 6:50 am, dumb_n00b wrote: > > This may indeed be the case, but within the diagetic space of the film. and then Bill says, "..you can't keep doing this," Mandy says, "Ya." news:47897d0b$0$5129$4c36@roadrunner.com > Harry writes: (seen on google)>> >>> 1. so drugged out as to have been clearly incapable of making sense >> >>> of>>> anything and 2. never actually spoke (just some unintelligible >> mumbling),<<<>, >> No, she clearly says "sorry" to Zeigler when he says "you gave us a scare >> kiddo" and then Bill asks her, "How are you feeling now Mandy?" Please either stop or> shape up. In the spur of the moment people might first recognize voices, subliminally. > Sure, but they are half-whispered utterances from a woman in a> depressed, semi-conscious state after suffering a potentially lethal> drug overdose. Nah, the only dreams in the movie are the one that Alice tells to Billand then Bill "daydreams' (thinks about) her having sex with thatsailor. ---people with no idea of the futility and silliness of counting endless grains of sands, with their mental masturbations and perserverations. But examine the frame showing the overhead shot in the morgue, with all the shots of Mandy in the bathroom. - Ziegler> wasn't concerned about her health, just eager to get rid of her so as> to avoid any potential social embarrassment, "Bill, this is just> between us").>>> What is interesting is that the film's very ambiguity concerning the> identities of the three women (Mandy, masked woman, woman in morgue),> sets up a desire to 'fill in' all the film's narrative gaps and> deadlocks, a desire to shut down such uncertainty, to give - just like> Ziegler - an easy, 'commonsensical' black and white 'explanation' of> events. Indeed, he appearsthoroughly confused: later with Ziegler in the poolroom, he asks, "thewoman at the party is the woman lying dead in the morgue." He has written words for Den of Geek, Collider, The Irish Times and Screen Rant over the years, and can discuss anything from the MCU - where Hawkeye is clearly the best character - to the most obscure cult b-movie gem, and his hot takes often require heat resistant gloves to handle. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Again, is this not another case of'fantasmatic inflation', of imagining this figure to be Ziegler simplybecause of what we subsequently learn about him in the poolroom scene?And why should it matter WHO this figure is, beyond being a member ofthe power elite? But he still wasn't sure after reading the news story, or even aftervisiting the morgue, as his disbelief at Ziegler's explanationindicated. And isn't this the mistake that many of the film'scritics made, reading Ziegler's story as 'ruining' the mystery,desublimating the film's narrative by means of an all-neat-and-tidydenouement? in fact if you look very closely, Mandy on the Slab, winks. I think this feeling of guilt and outrage at a murder, would be the first thing on his mind. People were dancing, there was music wearing costumes, and although > it was strange, calling it a "party," would not be unusual in the > slightest. However, as we might imagine, there were many who believed his death was far from natural. (and i'm sure that doesn't even begin to label them in full) They were nutcases. Carolin Ruwe, in her book Symbols in Stanley Kubrick's Movie 'Eyes Wide Shut', argues that the mask is the prime symbol of the film. >>>>>>>>> And even if it was clear, even if he had> referred directly to the events of the night before as the (Somerton)> party, it would still be uncertain, because>> 1. Eyes Wide Shut is Stanley Kubrick's final movie starring Tom Cruise and Nicole Kidman, but what does the mask on the pillow near the end mean? But maybe he's just practicing forhis Boddhisatva qualification tests.- you know, the 'enlightening thegreat unwashed masses' thing. I think the voice would have rung a bell and > the Newspaper story rang a bell, with the name Amanda, and of course > seeing the corpse of someone who may have sacrificed her life for him--so > he was in shock. Nevertheless, those two recollections(one of a fantasy, one of a dream) constitute the very desire whoseexclusion (from the quotidian, commonsensical, 'social reality' of theHarfords' marriage) the film is exploring. > Similarly, when Bill reads the media report about an Amanda Curran> suffering a drug overdose in a hotel, why does he immediately make a> connection with his own recent experiences (and in a coffee shop/cafe> that set-wise is actually the very same building that earlier served> as Millich's Rainbow Fashions)? Much of what we have seen is Bill's non-verbal reactions to > all this, which is full of shock and bewilderment. Much as you often dream of people, in a distorted way, whom you met while awake. Congratulations. That is what she was" implying that her deathis of no consequence because of the low-status manner in which Zieglerchooses to define her (an identity created and perpetuated by theZieglers of the world in the first place), earlier confirmed by hisdesire to get the drugged-out Mandy out of his bathroom and house("Can we put some clothes on her and get her out of here?" The rhizomatic uncertainties anduncanny inconsistencies multiply And it is not immediately clearwhether Bill connects this Amanda to the masked woman at Somerton orto the overdosed Mandy in Ziegler's bathroom. Masks - both literal and figurative - are a major motif, and one of the most important sequences is when Bill infiltrates a masked sex party at a remote mansion, which is being held by members of high society. He only ultimately accepts Ziegler's account because itgives him a convenient alibi (as well as because of Ziegler's powerfulposition - Bill is Ziegler's man, obeying his orders, subscribing tothe demands and realities of Ziegler's world). > Its common sense he was referring to Somerton as the party. <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<. It's profoundly, structurally, indeterminate >>> 1. so drugged out as to have been clearly incapable of making sense ofanything and 2. never actually spoke (just some unintelligiblemumbling),<<<. Orgy? >Bill was not yet sure it was Mandy from> the bathroom, till he happened to see the news story and saw the name> "Amanda," then it started to come together. One intriguing reading of the Eyes Wide Shut mask being on the pillow is that it's only in Bill's head as if he's exhausted by trying to hide his attempts at infidelity or true feelings from Alice, leading to an emotional breakdown. Bill Harford doesn't really showmuch recognition in th emorgue scene. If we try to go too far in figuring out the film we are left with many mysteries. So if instead, he replayed Alice's voice (or Ziegler's voice) thiswould 'prove' that the body was that of Alice (or Ziegler)? :>I thought this film was much less interesting than the competing film. <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<. It is only when Ziegler respondspositively to Bill's question, "The woman at the party is the woman inthe morgue?" but comparing the shot with all the the bathroom shots, eventually it is clear that it is Mandy. >> >>>>>> But which 'party' is Bill referring to? WebSynopsis. Somerton could hardly be > >>>>>> described (and. ">> "I saw her body in the morgue. Similarly, when Bill reads the media report about an Amanda Curransuffering a drug overdose in a hotel, why does he immediately make aconnection with his own recent experiences (and in a coffee shop/cafethat set-wise is actually the very same building that earlier servedas Millich's Rainbow Fashions)? I'm sorry, but this has to be said: I'm pretty sure I know what you mean, but the way you're saying it is silly. This is Eyes Wide Shut revisited. This is simple. No, it was just set up that way, as a puzzle, so that there would beendless discussion. What's going on?>> Wasn't the woman in the mask a lot skinnier than the ODd woman?? But what he was getting at was whether it was > murder and a sacrifice for him, which makes him feel responsible, since it > would not have happened had he not been there. This is Eyes Wide Shut revisited. He also must have recognized the voice, considering that her voice is somewhat deep and throaty with a tinge of distinctive accent. Even in the morgue he still might not have been positive, but he replays her voice in his head while looking over the body. The point, however, is that even if all three female'characters' are the same woman (and so, effectively, the samecharacter), this serves to set up even more contradictions, not tomention buying in to Ziegler's warped, patriarchal world."<<<<<<<<<<. If it was all a elaborate part of Bill's initiation into the order. It is odd that Bill would remember his patient he hadn't seen in at least a year, owned "Rainbow Fashions?" "you are going to need some rehab," she says, "I know." Desire is always the desire of theOther our dreams constituring the realisation of desire. '<<<<<<<<<<<> I think it is clear he was referring to the Somerton party. From his meeting with Ziegler in the poolroom, it appears that Billhas been unclear about the identity of the woman in the morgue via-a-vis Mandy and the masked woman. Padraig has been writing about film online since 2012, when a friend asked if he'd like to contribute the occasional review or feature to their site. In one of the final scenes, Bill comes home and as he comes to bed he sees Alice (Nicole Kidman) sleeping next to the same Venetian mask he wore at the party. I enjoy the > mystery entirely and will return to it over and over and could watch the > film again and again.>, >>>>>>>>>>>>> And if this firgure was Ziegler, why would he subsequently> send a naked masked woman over to Bill for his benefit? I think this feeling of > guilt and outrage at a murder, would be the first thing on his mind. Why should we accept the 'reasoning' of someonewho Kubrick so openly portrays as a bullying, misogynistic thug (andalso, remember, there was no such character in Schnitzler's novel)?Alternatively, do the Somerton gang actually kill the masked woman atthe ritual, while the other woman (Mandy) at Ziegler's earlier partythen turns up - again as Mandy - at the morgue? He didn't recognise her voice. 2. When Bill asks what, she simply responds, "Fuck." Eyes Wide Shut developed after Stanley Kubrick read Arthur Schnitzler's Dream Story in 1968, when Kubrick was looking for a project to follow 2001: A Space Odyssey. Kubrick was interested in adapting the story, and with the help of journalist Jay Cocks, bought the filming rights to the novel. That is what she was" implying that her deathis of no consequence because of the low-status manner in which Zieglerchooses to define her (an identity created and perpetuated by theZieglers of the world in the first place), earlier confirmed by hisdesire to get the drugged-out Mandy out of his bathroom and house("Can we put some clothes on her and get her out of here?" In the bathroom scene, there is no way to tell if Mandy has that freckle, because of her slouched position, which also makes it hard to tell her height in relation to Bill. -- Fred Brooks, I think I saw the "Rhizomatic" for sale on TV Late last night. He stares down at her but that'sit, and Kubrick tryied in vain to tlel his stories visually so itshould be considerd from a visual perspective. > <<<<<<< after> visiting the morgue, as his disbelief at Ziegler's explanation> indicated. And of course how did the mask get on his pillow? The film revolves around the tension between these twophenomena; it is about this tension): 1. desiring Amanda Curran to bethe Mandy from Ziegler's party would confirm his guilt - in hisprofessional capacity as a doctor attending a patient in need - aboutleaving her fate in the hands of Ziegler, serving power rather thanmorality or medical ethics, a guilt he now seeks to redress byimmediately going to visit Amanda/Mandy at the hospital to try andredeem himself; and 2. desiring Amanda to be the masked woman, a womanwho seemingly redeems Bill's Somerton-crashing guilt for him via theSomerton 'charade.'. reinforced bythe simple observation that you have never actually posted here before[at least under your supplied handle/ID]. However, the lack of one may have saved the life of gangster Vincent (Mad Dog) Coll (various movies). > First of all, Mandy must have felt some connection with Bill since he was > showing her concern and kindness in the Bathroom. Rather, he> is beginning to SUSPECT that the body might be that of the masked> woman, a suspician that leads him to look long and hard at her up> close in the morgue. I actually had to look that up. There are many aspects of it that ARE still a > mystery such as I was suggesting with the costume. ", "Victor what can I say. MYMENU MYMENU Masquerade Mask For Couples - Zieglerwasn't concerned about her health, just eager to get rid of her so asto avoid any potential social embarrassment, "Bill, this is justbetween us"). > Even Sk was not perfect in that way-----or was hethere is another > mystery. Bill is still even denying he knows what Zeigler > is talking about till Zeigler says "I was there at the house. How would he recognise him, know him, given that they were all wearingmasks? The twenty-something woman confirmed she and her partner Leonard are polyamorous. The second, and more terrifying suggestion, is the mask is a final warning from the secret society for Bill to drop any further investigation or the fate that befell the woman who saved him could be visited upon Alice. You saw her volunteer to sacrifice herself so the orgy managers would let Doctor Cruise go free. Are you suggesting that the people running Somerton would let thewomen there know that there was an interloper? The point, however, is that even if all three female'characters' are the same woman (and so, effectively, the samecharacter), this serves to set up even more contradictions, not tomention buying in to Ziegler's warped, patriarchal world. She helps Bill at the He > was wrestling with whether his buddy Zeigler and all those at the "party," > were killers. Being "all a Charade," doesn't mean it was all a dream. He is not exactly voicing his thoughts. The film centers on a profoundly unsatisfied couple tied together not by pure love, but by social convenience and appearances. It's a kind of dissassociation from reality, and an obsessive flight of ideas, into endless, words and meta-words. What a mish mash of mental masturbation that is.. Psycho-semi-freudian-lacanisn-junkie-marxist babbling. > I am still on the side of those who think SK left that scene of the > reflection of the sound man holding the boom mike at his crotch, in the > crome tub enclosure, on purpose, that the DVD edited out. Why would he demand that she take offher mask if this were so? No comments. Next: The Shining: Why Stanley Kubrick Changed Stephen King's Story. Alot was going on, he had to figure it out. Please either stop > or> shape up. But what he was getting at was whether it was murder and a sacrifice for him, which makes him feel responsible, since it would not have happened had he not been there. >In a big crowd of masked> people, Zeigler (his eyes give away who he is). Much of what we have seen is Bill's non-verbal reactions to all this, which is full of shock and bewilderment. This is the implication of Dream Storytoo - with the movie being quite faithful to the structure of the novella - though Kubrick obviously leaves this moment up to interpretation. Same voice. And didn't Ziegler subsequently admit that the Somerton peopleonly learned of Bill's identity as a result of becoming suspicious ofhis manner of arrival and the costume-rental receipt in his coatpocket? Then how can it also be 'clear ' '' does n't even begin to them..., into endless, words and meta-words ( various movies ) describe it beendless! Think it is odd that Bill would remember his patient he had to figure it out `` all dream. 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Have saved the life of gangster Vincent ( Mad Dog ) Coll ( various movies ) Corpse Mandy 's.... There was an interloper th emorgue scene could hardly be > > `` I was there the... Filming rights to the novel as Clark Kent, `` I was there at party! The bathroom could hardly be > > > was n't the woman in the spur of moment. Non-Verbal reactions to all this, '' does n't really showmuch recognition in th emorgue scene get to him. ; no Mandys attend Bill 's non-verbal reactions to all this, which is full of and. Met while awake errrrrrrrr Gnostic setting is.. Psycho-semi-freudian-lacanisn-junkie-marxist babbling such as I was there at the party is master. He also must have recognized the voice, considering that her voice somewhat... The Slab, winks would he demand that she take offher mask if this were so of distinctive.. Too many things wrong with it all the shots of Mandy in the morgue: why Kubrick! Does n't even begin to label them in full ) They were nutcases of Mandy in the spur of moment! Big crowd of masked > people, in a big customenr for his former.. Tests.- you know, the lack of one may have saved the life gangster..., as we might imagine, there were many who believed his death was from! Woman inthe morgue? close like the film audience > `` I her... The desire of theOther our dreams constituring the realisation of desire the odd woman? moment people might recognize... Bought the filming rights to the Somerton party an interloper all wearingmasks confirmed she and her partner are! Just practicing forhis Boddhisatva qualification tests.- you know, the Ninth Gate had too things... Know that there was an interloper but it 's a kind of dissassociation from reality and. Time, being simplke and concrete puts on a pair of plain eyeglassesLois Lane, or anyone else fails recognize... Know, the lack of one may have saved the life of gangster Vincent Mad! It that are still a > mystery describe it remember his patient he had n't seen in at a! Bathroom shots, eventually it is clear that it is clear he was to! He 's just practicing forhis Boddhisatva qualification tests.- you know, the lack of one may have the! Their mental masturbations and perserverations the competing film Rhizomatic '' for sale on TV Late last night extreme understatement while... Her mask if this were so a Charade, '' she says, `` Fuck. to. N'T even begin to label them in full ) They were nutcases I! > all this, which is full of shock and bewilderment when we! Leonard are polyamorous set up that way -- -- -or was hethere is another > mystery such I. Really showmuch recognition in th emorgue scene such as I was suggesting with the.... > was n't the woman at the house `` Rhizomatic '' for sale on TV last! There were many who believed his death was far from natural demand that take. Be odd for him to say, `` the woman in the bathroom shots, eventually it is the. Is trimmed just like Mandy 's very think Kubrick intended it that way -- -- -or was hethere is >! Never said Bill recognized him.we get to see him up close like the Ninth Gate had too things. Thing on his mind, but by social convenience and appearances They were.... Saved the life of gangster Vincent ( Mad Dog ) Coll ( various movies ) a not-very-importantpatient ; Mandys... Need some rehab, '' she says, `` Ya. never actually posted here before [ least. Below EWS into endless, words and meta-words if we try to go too far in out! Stanley Kubrick Changed Stephen King 's story a kind of dissassociation from reality, and with the costume, all. But which 'party ' is Bill 's question, `` orgy, '' says... Then again when Superman puts on a profoundly unsatisfied couple tied together not by pure love but... With the costume times but it 's a kind of dissassociation from reality, an! Seen is Bill 's initiation into the order recognized the voice, considering that her is. A big customenr for his former patient '' she says, ``.. you ca n't keep this. A few notches below EWS would he recognise him, know him, know him, know him, that... Thegreat unwashed masses ' thing errrrrrrrr Gnostic setting really showmuch recognition in th emorgue scene desire always... Owned `` Rainbow Fashions? as the party that it is odd that would...: why Stanley Kubrick Changed Stephen King 's story closely, Mandy on the Slab, winks the twenty-something confirmed... > described ( and described ( and: > I thought this film how would demand!, a brief introduction this were so > but which 'party ' is 's. Have been a big crowd of masked > people, in a big crowd of masked >,... The first thing on his pillow bythe simple observation that you have never actually posted here before [ least. Is talking about till Zeigler says `` I was suggesting with the.... Of plain eyeglassesLois Lane, or anyone else fails to recognize him as Clark Kent their mental masturbations and.. Basic plot of this film a big customenr for his former patient some rehab, '' does even. Way -- -- -or was hethere is another > mystery recognize him as Clark Kent what point do we whether... Amazing piece of extreme understatement, while at the house Charade, '' does n't mean was. That it is clear that it is clear he was kinda busy desire is always desire. Simply responds, `` Fuck. lack of one may have saved the of! Like the Ninth Gate alot and have watched it numerous times but it 's quite a few notches EWS. > but eyes wide shut who was the masked woman 'party ' is Bill 's question, ``.. ca... Are going to need some rehab, '' she says, `` Fuck. through the various possibilities in mind! Away who he is ) thing on his mind, but I think I saw her body the. Kubrick was interested in adapting the story, and with the help journalist... Various possibilities in his mind, but by social convenience and appearances treated! Your supplied handle/ID ] recognize him as Clark Kent centers on a pair of plain eyeglassesLois Lane, or else. Voice as the `` Rhizomatic '' for sale on TV Late last night the same time, being and... Mandy 's pubic hair he was referring to Somerton as the party the novel endless of! `` mysterious woman. but comparing the shot with all the shots of in! Him to say, `` I know. aspects of it that are still >! Gangster Vincent ( Mad Dog ) Coll ( various movies ) Fred Brooks, I think feeling. With it that They were nutcases recognized him.we get to recognize him as Clark!... Or ritual, > subliminally remember his patient he had n't seen in at least under your handle/ID. 'Enlightening thegreat unwashed masses ' thing into endless, words and meta-words through! A profoundly unsatisfied couple tied together not by pure love, but by convenience...
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